Maller:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
5% bonus to all Armor Resistances
Slot layout: 5 H (-1), 3 M, 6 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 1000 PWG (+100), 280 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-168) / 2100(+225) / 1700(-19)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1550(+50) / 515s(-22.5s) / 3 (+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 205(+41) / 0.56(-0.045) / 11550000 / 6.1s (-0.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km / 280(+10) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Radar (+2)
Signature radius: 130
Cargo capacity: 480 (+200)

I feel like the right answer is to turn the Omen into a giant Slicer - make it fast with an optimal+damage bonus. Then give the Maller the brawler role with a 25m^3 drone bay.

-Liang

Noooo, it's not OP at all! Leave my pretty alone! Look at that evil, mean Rupture instead!

-Liang

Errr.... Vexor ain't about projection. It's about getting in your face and unleashing hell. And with these changes it just does that ALOT better now. One of the the highest cruiser speeds with it's low mass and decent agility. Enough mids to sport a modest shield buffer, with plenty of lows for damage mods. Increased grid so you can slap on some Neutrons for extra love. Bandwidth is perfectly fine for it's close-range blaster assault. It's a cruiser that will be surpassing 800+dps, with a ~25K+ buffer, and still be able to tackle. That is pretty broken.

I use a Vexor all the time. It is my go-to ship for shooting people in the face. As it is now on TQ, it's pretty damn good. And I'm rather successful using it. And that's flying it with an armor tank. These proposed changes will just make it an insane killing machine.

Perhaps add a 5th Turret to the Rupture and 120ish Grid. Then change the Dmg Bonus to a 7.5% Tracking Bonus like the Rifter or Stabber Fleet Issue.

Make it into a good Shield Artillery Ship / Armor Duel Prop Ship / High Tracking Mid Dmg Rush Ship. Double DPS Bonuses seem like a really boring way to go here.

Because Tracking only helps for killing Frigates.

Tracking also helps with Artillery.


The weapon is not being nerfed. If it can not operate with 5 Turrets and a DPS Bonus like the other Cruisers then the weapon is the problem. As for why should short range weapons be short I am going to give you a huuuge hint here. They are short range weapons.

If you want long range weapons fit long range weapons and if those long range weapons suck then CCP should look into that instead of white washing over it like with the Moa.

Double DPS Bonuses are boring, give it a real second bonus and role.

That is entire a problem with Artillery Balance that should be solved before this expansion comes out and we are forced to deal with a bunch of Cruisers optimized with bonuses solely based around short range weapons.

Even if tracking does make it easy to kill Frigates it won't matter because pretty much every cruiser can do that now anyway. Also it will help with Hail making up for the Dmg Bonus.

I don't want to see it become Stabber Mk II and instead be optimized for other things.

I honestly don't see ANY problem with this maller. It obviously sucks solo. period.

Aside from that, it will be a resist bonused cruiser hull, that costs something vaguely around 10mil and the people you'll find inside will most likely be greedy carebears or noobs. If you're lucky, they can use scorch.
And suddenly, you got the cruiser with the MOST AVERAGE dps out of the whole lineup, while maintaining the by far best tank. At least considering that 250 dps, which is easily archivable using a heat sink on this maller, at 20-25km is quite the most ideal thing you can have (since every brick of a brain on earth now knows: can point it? yes? shoot for optimal damage...)

In my humble opinion, this maller sketch is exactly what a T1 cruiser should stand for. Reliability + nobrainer to fly.

I think some people are really missing the whole point with the Maller. It has a 130 sig radius uses 5 laser turrets has good across the board resists and damage projection. And no drones.

Can I think of another ship that is like this. Wait oh the zealot.

Can't you see the design idea for the maller is AHAC zealot gang on a serious shoe string. Its not as good as the zealot but it can fight the same way. It has all the core requirements low sig high resists and adequate projection and moderate damage.

Its AHAC with training wheels basically because when you **** it up your going to lose very little, especially with the fact you can now use T1 Logi. Thats it thats the idea. A T1 version of a T2 fleet docterine.

Yeah I know what you're saying, it's just never going to happen. You want a higher than +10% damage/lvl to drones. Only one ship in the past 6 years has had that, and they realized it was a bad idea and removed the bonus. That was on a Dread. Now you want that kind of bonus on a cruiser? Keep dreaming dude.

Or make the current ecm drones able to be flown only by dedicated ECM boats, and give the rest of us a ECM "burst" drone designed to allow us to break lock and exit as a last ditch effort to save our ship...

Just a suggestion. ;)

After reading replies here and on FHC, I think I'm inclined to agree that the Maller should be a Heavy Assault Missile Ship, or just a Medium missile ship and the Sacrilege would be the specialized Heavy Assault Missile ship.

I think 5% per level armor resistance and 5% + explosion velocity or damage to Medium Missiles

I also think one of the frigates should go missiles, and the Prophecy. The Battles ships are ok as they are, just even them up a little stat wise. Then add a Torpedo specialized Amarr ship. Make the Geddon the Ewar one, Apoc stays sniper, and Abbadon stays tanky but gets more cap stable.

3 Medslots is enough for most Amarr cruisers :

You may have to make a choice (ohnoes) about fitting either a web or a cap booster with your propulsion and point/scrambler, but lasers have a strong tracking and you have lowslots enough to fit tracking enhancers if you need to...

If you fit a pvp buffer Maller and doesn't expect to become heavily neuted it is very possible to run a good setup without a cap booster. Your cap onlyhas to last as long as the fight which is usually 2-3 minutes at the most. Cap stability is nice, but if you don't like to take a risc maybe you should go play... something else :-)
If you DO need a cap booster I am sure the tracking of lasers will do fine without a webifier. Afterall you DO have enough lowslots for a decent tank and a few tracking enhancers??

Everybody want Dual propulsion, dual web, point and scrambler gank ships with Tracking disruptors and a huge armor buffer while flying faster than anyone else - But try to embrace the possibilities and the eternal search for good setups because you can never find THE best setup in Eve!!

Apart from that I too think the Maller could use 3 light drones

Pinky

He must be busy working on an 'armour tanking 2.0' sticky.

This. I am so far rather disappointed in the Amarr dessie compared to the others as well. But I do like some of their other changes to frig / cruisers. Just wish as you said above that it was a bit... more.

You guys are freaking crazy. The Coercer is already "win" and will be "omgwtfpwn" when the new patch hits.

Anyways, back to your discussions....

Hey everyone. I'm still alive, but have been in Austin for GDC for the last week. I spent a lot of time there mulling over the feedback you all have been giving us and I'm working on getting some numbers together at the moment for a 2nd iteration of these changes.

I expect to get it to the CSM later today and then on to you once they have had a chance to provide some feedback and catch any stupid mistakes on my part

New changes, designed to solve some of the problems brought up so far:
Note that we've upped the mass of all the Combat cruisers in part to help keep them feeling distinct from the other cruisers.

Maller: More fittings and cap to help it operate with the still difficult to use lasers. Added 3 light drones to help with damage application.
+150 PG, +20 CPU
-200 Shield, +200 Armor
+75 Capacitor, -50s Cap Recharge Time, +0.5 Cap/s
-10 Velocity, -0.04 Agility, +500,000 mass, -0.2s Align time
+15m3 Dronebay, +15mbit bandwidth

Moa: Moving a high to a mid provides more tackle and tank options at the expense of the utility high. Slightly lower speed and higher mass alongide a better tank layout and more fittings.
-1H, +1M
+50 PG, +5 CPU
+200 Shield, -200 Armor, +100 Structure
+75 Capacitor, +0.15 Cap/s
-5 Velocity, -0.02 Agility, +500,000 mass

Vexor: Upped the mass, as the old values were just a bit too insane in practice. Added 25m3 dronebay to allow more more spare drones to be carried.
-10 Velocity, -0.07 Agility, +1,000,000 mass, -0.2s Align time
+25m3 Dronebay

Rupture: As many of you pointed out, the Rupture speed was simply too good. My bad.
-1 Launcher
-100 Structure
-30 Velocity, -0.04 Agility, +550,000 mass, -0.2s Align time

OP has been updated

Yeah, it's now too slow.

Terrible idea, really awful. All this does is turn Nos back into its old version, obsoleting neuts and leading to a "Nos on everything" effect even more pronounced than the current "neuts on everything". At least with current neuts you have to pay cap to activate them - your future Nos would simply be a free lunch. Or half a free lunch, anyway.

The mechanic of Nos is perfect - it's an entirely defensive module that sits opposite the offensive neuts. Don't blur those lines. Instead, improve Nos by making it easier to fit and increase the drain amount. Say halve the PG and double the drain amount?

It might also be worth introducing a module that gives resistance to neut/nos too. I know we have cap batteries that provide that effect, but cap batteries are far too hard to fit, both in terms of medslots and PG/CPU, and the resistance effect is far too small. A better neut/nos-resistance module would be a highslot mod that gave around a 30-40% reduction in neut/nos drain amount, subject to normal stacking penalties. This would give a useful degree of protection against neuting and work well in conjunction with Nos.

There might be a problem with cap/supercaps fitting full racks of these neut-resist mods, but what use is, say, a triage Archon that has four neut-resisters fitted? It can't remote repair anything. Exchanging RR power for cap defense seems like it should be a reasonably self-balancing mechanism.

I also think nos is great for this role. What about decreasing the cycle time on them so they are more effective at keeping mods running and surviving under neuts.

I.e.
Small NOS 3 second duration -> 2 second duration
Medium NOS 6 second duration -> 4 second duration
Large NOS 12 second duration -> 8 second duration.

This is a 33% buff to current NOS, and now each one cycles 3x in the same time a neut cycles once. So much more effective at capping up.

tbh NOS work just fine as they are, most of my kills would never have been possible just because of the small NOS

i agree though that the powergrid requirements on medium NOS are a little to big for their use , i would say reduce them to 100-120 or so

as it i now thay us

EDIT: to those wanting to reduce the cycle time of the NOS , try overheating them sometime :P

Maller
More cap i suspect is needed and perhaps consider giving it a stronger drone capacity than the moa surely caldari should be worst in drone capacity.

The Maller doesn't need any buffs in its current iteration. You people asking for buffs should analyze its potential a bit more or wait for actual testing. I expect people to scream bloody murder once they realize how strong it is in straight up combat. Take a 1600mm plate Omen which is a strong brawler. The Maller is going to be significantly better than the Omen. The only way this could possibly be balanced is by giving the ship several severe drawbacks:

1. Extremely cap hungry
2. Three mids only which means one of the four critical mid slot modules is going to be missing.
3. Worst cruiser to fight frigates with. The three light drones help a bit but not much.
4. Slow.

I'm fine with this kind of extreme design but only comprehensive testing can tell how this plays out and if it's balanced in the bigger picture. In the context of 1v1 duels (which is what most test server feedback is based on) the Maller will be seen as overpowered without a doubt.

Do you realize how skewed your image of what consitutes a 'strong brawler' is? If the Thorax couldn't win this then it would be 100% useless.

I don't think I'm underestimating anything. It's very clear from the numbers (EFT with retribution data helps) and I've spent 2 hours testing the new Omen to get a feel for the non-numbers part. The (plated) Omen and Maller are very similar so they can be easily compared.

Make up your mind. By the way, my plated Omen killed every single Thorax I fought so (including TD fits) I'm not really sure how you get this idea that a plated Omen cannot beat a Thorax. Admittedly, I never had a fight start at 0 but I would expect to lose.



I'm guessing in your mind the Maller is only fine when it beats every other cruiser and fit?

"if they start at 0" ..... Therefore, don't start a fight with a Thorax at zero. Balance achieved. My work here is done.

You can choose to do this. Eve allows you to fit less than the maximum turrets. Bingo utility high.

A) Rupture only has 5 highs (only 1 utility slot).. so you're OK with Rupture sacrificing a Turret to for a utility mid (to fit the two neuts)? Or, you made a mistake?

B) fit a Med Booster.

That gives you a Cap stable, Neut resistant fit that has >40K EHP, >1200m/s, >300 DPS to >20Km.

Have people actually given hard tests to some of these on test? I hear tell about how viscous and op the Maller is on EFT, but I also notice it is very slow, TERRIBLY cap inefficient, and does not have enough mid slots to try and make up for it, on that same EFT.

What I am looking for is how this, the Stabber, the Vexor, etc., are performing on test vs other cruisers, frigates, and dessies.

Any feedback available would be appreciated. Between the Maller, and the new Amarr dessie, I am starting to see a trend of Amarr ships that look like they will not be able to play solo or small group overly well without very heavy support (again, looking at it from an outside perspective, as I can not get on to test and get my greedy little fingers into them in person).

~Z

Now I need to know. How do you even get that to work?

Now look at it from the other perspective. Imagine a t1 cruiser that can project around 350dps damage up to t2 point range with around 35-40k EHP. It would be too good if it didn't struggle at some other points. In mallers case it is cap usage and speed.

Maller is going to be plain bad at solo action but it will be good in gangs (esp with logi support).

....and why is that a problem. If it were otherwise the ship would just pwn everything out there. Mallers role is to stay there endure and punish back. If you need to catch, point and deal damage to something, you might try amarrian attack cruiser Omen.

I believe you meant Heavy pulses. They already have the best damage projection of all short range cruiser size weapons....and you want to double it?



I believe you meant heavy beams...and it is getting a fix at 4th dec.

Amarr is a race that runs 100% on Scorch Crystals. Blasters work okay with just Antimatter, Auto's don't need Barrage, SR Missiles do not need T2 Ammo. Yes those weapons can be made better with T2 but they are not in dire straights without it.

Take away Amarr's Scorch is like breaking the races kneecaps with a tire iron. Amarr should be able to stand well with and without Scorch.

I think you're wrong on both counts.

Scorch is a good and generally useful ammo type, but it's not overpowered, and amarr are not reliant on it. It's a tool in their box, and it makes them much more rounded ships, but it doesn't make them overpowered. Yes, they load up scorch a lot. That's because it maintains good range and good dps. It's a good all purpose ammo. Now, perhaps it should have a little less range, or a little less dps. But its not particularly unbalancing anything.

Touch+¬

However........5x EV-600's (yes, I know ) would cap out a Rupture using a medium neut on a Thorax a long time before the Thorax was capped out by the Ruptures Neut.

Not if it has a Cap Booster, the Rax is about as fast with a 1600mm Plate and 2 Armor Rigs as the Rupture is. Shield fit it is no Contest.

Rupture has Attack Cruiser HP with Combat Cruiser Speed and its 2x Dmg bonus gives it the fire power of 5 bonused guns. While yes it does have that Neut the Thorax has room for ECM Drones.

The new Rupture is a bit mediocre and if they are going to give it Combat Cruiser speed I would like the other stats to make up for it. Maybe move a low to a mid and do the Shield / Armor / Hull ratio like 1900 / 1400 / 1500 instead of 1500 / 1800 /1500. It just doesn't measure up to Armor anyway compared to the real armor boats.

Give it a good solid Shield Tank, the Stabber is the Kiter the Rupture is just slow and flimsy, but has a neut.

And if it is Armor Fit it can not fit that Medium Neut so if the Thorax is Duel Webbing as well it will kill it no sweat. Not only that but 1 Neut is not insta death for a Thorax with no Cap Booster seeing as how the Thorax can put out more then enough DPS even in an Armor Electron Fit to break a Rupture by then.

This isn't about who can fit what in X fictional 1v1 scenario it is about the over all ability of the ship. Fact it has a Attack Cruiser Tank, Fact it has Combat Cruiser Speed, Fact it has no extra DPS to show for it just the option of fitting a Neut and that is it. Being able to fit a Neut is not compensation for the other stat problems.

At what? It is sllllooow by comparison to Attack Cruisers and sooooo under tanked in comparison to Combat Cruisers. You are looking for scenario's for it to match up to an attack Cruiser that is so much faster god forbid it fights a Vexor.

It has the speed of a Combat Cruiser and the Tank of a Attack Cruiser, it is terribly designed. Meet the New Cruiser Rifter.

Either way I still support that TEs need a nerf and are a cause of alot of imbalance right now.